Well…is it? Really, any other argument, point, fact, issue or topic is absolutely irrelevant to the debate as I will demonstrate below. This divisive, painful and avoided question is both the alpha and the omega of one of the most fundamental defining choices confronting mankind. Think I am over-stated it or being melodramatic? Then consider that if the answer is ’yes’, we are condoning (and subsidizing) the gruesome, agonizing murder of the most innocent and helpless of human beings (and trafficking in their body parts). If the answer is ‘yes’, we as a society support killing babies. If it sounds harsh to be put so bluntly, that’s too bad. Euphemisms like ‘terminating a pregnancy’ allow people to hide from the real question. On the other hand, if the answer is ‘no’, then there’s no problem and abortion could be fully embraced, even as a form of retroactive birth control. Why not? If it’s not murder, then it’s nothing. Big deal.
But the question needs to be asked and, in discussing the matter, we should not deviate into tangential arguments that are meaningless given the underlying issue.


A colleague recently expressed hatred and derision toward a politician based on his pro-life stance. The conversation went as follows:
Jane: He wants to take away a woman’s right to choose.
DM: To choose what?
Jane: What we can do with our own bodies.
DM: Lots of laws do that. You can’t punch someone in the nose because they are in your way.
Jane: We’re not talking about hurting someone else, it’s our body and we have the right to decide whether we want to be pregnant or not.
DM: So a fetus doesn’t qualify as someone else?
Jane: No.
DM: How do you know? What if you are wrong?
Jane: You’re just a typical male who wants to subvert the rights women have struggled so hard for.
DM: Like the right to randomly decide, based on nothing, that the unborn child growing inside you doesn’t count as a person, for example?
Jane: @#*! you.
*******************************************************************************************
Unfortunately for me, that wasn’t the end of the hornet’s nest I had stirred up for another colleague had overheard the latter part of the conversation and he chose to swoop in and attack. Meet John (whose real name is Kevin, but he seems to go to the bathroom about 20 times a day…and it’s a long stay each time). Although, admittedly, my last question to Jane was a little rough, I have never claimed to have the answer to the paramount question. Both Jane and John (obviously not their real names) both assumed I was approaching the conversation in a combative stance since that is generally the way the debate shakes down. However, I stuck to the method of Socrates (more fun if you pronounce it So-crates) and simply asked questions in order to lead them to the fundamental issue.
John started in with the second talking point of those in the so-called ‘pro-choice’ camp. It is one that is generally considered a debate-ender and under which many so-called ‘pro-lifers’ waffle. Mmmm…waffle.
John: So you are Mr. Big Pro-Choice right winger, hey?
DM: Who me? I’m just asking questions, here.
John: Right. And a coward too who won’t admit it.
DM: Nothing to admit, but I wouldn’t recommend calling ME the coward in this conversation since you haven’t had the courage to honestly mull over this whole issue.
John: Whatever, you’re such a hypocrite. If you knocked up some girl you just met, you would want her to keep the baby?
DM: What a boring and stupid hypothetical question. And yes, I suppose I would. But the question should be asked to her, not me since I am not the one with the option to go to the clinic.
John: Ok, so what if some girl gets raped and becomes pregnant? Or what about incest? You’re saying she should be forced to keep the baby? (At this point the smug smiles appeared)
DM: I’m not saying anything. You tell me…should she?
John: Of course not.
DM: Why?
John: Because she was raped you assh*le.
DM: Horrible, I agree. Disgusting, vile and despicable.
John: Yet you said she should be forced to keep the baby.
DM: What baby?
John: The baby she is pregnant with!
DM: She is pregnant with a baby?!
John: What are you talking about?
DM: Well if it’s a baby, should she be allowed to end it’s life?
John: It’s not a baby, you know what I meant.
DM: What is it then.
John: A fetus.
DM: That’s not a baby though?
John: No.
DM: How do you know? Are you sure?
John: @#*! you.
DM: I’m just asking questions. I think it would be the most unimaginable horrible situation for a woman to find herself in, but that is irrelevant to whether or not having an abortion is still murder, no?
*******************************************************************************************
At this point things were getting really nasty and heated. Well, for John and Jane anyway. I still didn’t have a dog in the fight, I was just asking questions. I got through the John part with my humor still in tact because he was sportin’ a really gross boogie in his nose the whole time. He got it during the next clip though…which was even funnier, because at first it was on his finger and he tried a few times to subtlely flick it but it stuck and he ended up wiping in on his pants.
But I digress. Since John had raised his voice as he often does when he’s actually awake in the office, others had overheard the tail end of the conversation and decided to join in the fun. Incidentally, I don’t have any friends at work anymore. Shame how making people ask themselves tough questions that rattle their safe world view tends to make one a pariah. At any rate, Don (Liquid Lunch) decided to jump in and show-off how much he had learned from Law and Order reruns.
LL: It’s not murder, and even if it was it is justifiable (hiccup)
DM: So it might be murder?
LL: Justifiable homicide.
DM: So it is homicide?
LL: For the sake of argument, let’s say it is.
DM: Well is it or isn’t it?
LL: It’s not, but even if it is…
DM: Well if it’s not, then no problem right?
LL/John/Jane: Right!
DM: So you know for sure it’s not?
LL: Yes.
DM: How?
LL: …
LL: …
DM: Is the baby or fetus or whatever a living human?
LL: No.
DM: How do you know?
LL: Ok, so maybe it is. But it’s justifiable to have an abortion.
DM: Why?
LL: Because she never wanted to get pregnant or even have sex.
DM: What’s that got to do with whether killing the resulting baby is ok or not?
LL: Cuz a rape victim shouldn’t have to carry a baby that results from rape.
DM: That’s pretty circular. Is the baby somehow complicit in it’s arrival?
LL: Obviously not.
DM: Yet, despite the fact that it is completely innocent, it should be killed?
LL: You’re being an assh*le?
DM: How, by asking you questions?
LL: Look, she shouldn’t have to carry it. End of story. It’s for the health of the mother.
DM: You mean the mental health?
BP: Yes.
DM: How so?
BP: Because the baby reminds her of the rape or incest.
DM: So there is equivalency between the need to relieve her of this and the value of a baby’s life?
BP: You’re a pig, you can’t imagine what that would be like.
DM: That’s true. Horrible as I said. Now, answer the question. Is the life of a baby expendable if it is extinguished in order to protect a woman from serious emotional distress.
BP: Yes.
DM: What about if she found out 2 years after the child was born that it was fathered by the rapist?
BP: You’re being an idiot.
DM: That baby would also cause emotional distress. Is it expendable?
BP: That’s different.
DM: What about where sex was consensual and pregnancy accidental? Is there justification for abortion there?
LL: …
LL: Ok, well what about where the life of the mother hangs in the balance. You think abortion is wrong there, too don’t you.
DM: Is it?
LL: Of course not!
DM: Why?
LL: So a woman should have to die in order to save her baby?
DM: Most would.
LL: WHAT?
DM: Do you think most women, given Sophie’s Choice, would opt to die rather than have their baby die?
LL: grrrrr…we aren’t talking about a baby here.
DM: You just asked whether a woman should have to die in order to save her baby, didn’t you?
LL: I meant fetus.
DM: Once again…is it alive? Is it human? If it’s not a baby, what is it? Etc.
LL: I can’t believe you think a woman who would be killed by childbirth should have to go through it anyway.
DM: I am just asking questions here, I never stated that as a position. What I said was, once you accept that it is alive and a human choosing to abort is simply exchanging a life for a life. Do you disagree?
LL: A-ha, I never said it was a life.
DM: Yes you did. You said that it was ok to kill a baby that reminded a woman of a traumatic event.
LL: grrr…
DM: I am just pointing out that the circumstances of its arrival and the potential psychological or physical trauma present as a result of its existence are completely irrelevent to whether it is a human life. If it is a human life, intentionally ending that life is homicide. Whether it is justifiable is the question. Is it?
LL: Yes.
DM: Because of the trauma?
LL: Yes.
DM: But this doesn’t apply to babies that have been born or people in general…you can’t justify killing a 2 month old because of trauma?
LL: No.
DM: That isn’t logical given that you accepted that a pre-born baby is a human life.
LL: Oh ya, well what about when someone is going to kill you? Or battered wife syndrome where the taking of a life is justified because without doing so you would die yourself?
DM: What about it?
LL: It proves that preserving your life at the expense of another is ok.
DM: So a baby is intentionally choosing to cause harm to the mother?
LL: No…but…
DM: Isn’t that intention what makes self-defense laws?
LL:…
DM: I’m not saying a mother who is at risk of dying during childbirth should have to go through with it, I am just pointing out that the choice being made is one life over another.
LL: It’s a woman’s right to choose.
DM: To choose what?
LL: @#*! you.
*******************************************************************************************
As you may well imagine, things were bordering on boiling over at this point. All I was doing was asking questions. Sure, they may be tough questions that people aren’t usually asked or don’t usually ask themselves…but they are fair and legitimate to the debate. It occurred to me as this unfolded, that I found it really disturbing that such powerful positions and beliefs were held on such a crucial issue, without the slightest bit of internal analysis having been undertaken. It also occurred to me that a lot of people use nasty language when the feel cornered or pressed. I’m surprised I didn’t get punched.
Next up was a department manager, Blue Pants (he only wears blue pants…ever. Probably even in the shower). Things were getting dicey, but I decided to go with it just for fun.
BP: Stirring up the pot again I see. Don’t you people have work to do?
DM: Not really, the recession has really reduced my workload.
BP: You’re pushing it.
DM: It’s lunch, we’re just talking.
BP: Ya, the whole office heard. So anti-abortion are you?
DM: What makes you say that?
BP: I overheard.
DM: I’m just asking questions.
BP: So I suppose you think killing abortion doctors is ok.
DM: Why do you suppose that?
BP: That’s what all you anti-abortionists secretly believe isn’t it?
DM: Since when am I an anti-abortionist, I’m just asking questions. Do you think killing abortion doctors is ok?
BP: Certainly not.
DM: Can you understand how some might?
BP: How you might, you mean.
DM: No, I don’t. But I understand why some do. Do you?
BP: No. Murder is wrong.
DM: Murder is wrong?
BP: Obviously murder is wrong.
DM: Define murder.
BP: I dunno, the intentional killing of another human being.
DM: Is abortion murder?
BP: No.
DM: How do you know? What makes you so sure?
BP: You’re not going to lure me into some logic trap.
DM: Is that what I’m trying to do?
BP: Obviously.
DM: All I’m doing is asking simple questions.
BP: It’s not murder because it’s not a human being.
DM: What’s not?
BP: A fetus.
DM: What is it, then?
BP: It’s an embryo, then a fetus.
DM: Then what?
BP: What?
DM: What is it after it’s a fetus?
BP: …a baby.
DM: A human baby?
BP: Duh.
DM: Just clarifying. So at conception, it’s just an embryo?
BP: Yes.
DM: Then it grows and at some point it’s named changes to fetus?
BP: At some point.
DM: But we don’t know what point it changes from embryo to fetus?
BP: Whatever, I’m sure there’s a defined time when that happens…as soon as a certain number of cell divisions have taken place or something.
DM: But at some point it goes from embryo to fetus. Then at some point it becomes a baby? A human baby?
BP: I just said that.
DM: Ok, so when does it become a human baby?
BP: When it’s born alive.
DM: So upon birth a fetus goes from a non-human state…a fetus…to human?
BP: Yes.
DM: I guess that means President Obama supports infanticide. What is it about birth that makes something non-human suddenly become human?
BP: The ability to survive outside the womb.
DM: So premature or sick babies that would die without care aren’t human?
BP: Fine. Passing through the birth canal.
DM: What about babies born by c-section?
BP: …
DM: What makes a human human?
BP: That’s a question for philosophers.
DM: Well if you are saying murder is the intentional killing of another human, you should probably have a definition of human, no? Maybe you should philosophize a bit.
BP: The ability to reason.
DM: So a newborn has the ability to reason?
BP: Yes.
DM: Interesting theory. And this alleged ability is gained instantly upon live birth? It’s a talent that didn’t exist 15 minutes prior to joining the world.
BP: @#*! you. I have work to do.
DM: I don’t. Recession. But seriously, what makes a human human?
BP: A soul.
DM: When does that get there?
BP: @#*! you. I have work to do.
*******************************************************************************************
That’s pretty much the way things ended and I haven’t really been too popular around the office ever since. As far as I know, none of the people involved nor those listening gave the matter anymore thought. It’s easier not to bother. But given the gravity of the issue and the consequences if our assumptions are wrong…doesn’t it warrant a real, considered and honest dialogue? Even if that dialogue yields results and revelations we don’t want to accept?
I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind or take a position…or force a position on anyone. I’m just asking questions.
For your convenience, I drew up a basic flow chart. Take a look…and answer the questions honestly.

[...] Is it Murder? The Heart of the “Abortion Issue” « Driven UndergroundDM: Define murder. BP: I dunno, the intentional killing of another human being. DM: Is abortion murder? BP: No. DM: How do you know? What makes you so sure? BP: You're not going to lure me into some logic trap. …Driven Underground – http://drivenunderground.wordpress.com/|||Michelle Malkin » Notes on the murder of George Tiller2 Jun 2009 And I wholeheartedly believe the rise in homicides, child abuse, and a general disregard for fellow man in today's world has a direct link to abortion. If we're going to say it's okay for us to define a human being based on our own …Michelle Malkin – http://michellemalkin.com/|||Illinois Review: Obama: Not pro-infanticide? Prove it!… young as justifiable homicide, but justifiable only if the killer is the mother of that young. Maybe they need to define that the US Supreme Court has defined the young as chattel property of the mother to do with as she pleases. …Illinois Review – http://illinoisreview.typepad.com/illinoisreview/|||Senator requests bill making it double murder to kill mom, unborn …I have not read the bill, but the article seems to say the bill would define the crime of assault on a fetus or the crime of homicide on a fetus INDEPENDENT of whether it took place in the commission of another crime. …Politics Impact – OregonLive.com – http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/|||Supreme Court Considers Constitutionality of Juvenile Life Without …Together, they raise the question whether a sentence of life imprisonment without parole for a non-homicide offense committed by a juvenile offender violates the Eighth Amendment prohibition against cruel and unusual punishments. As a policy matter, I am sympathetic with the …. Violent crime frequently reflects a failure of impulse control, combined with an overly optimistic assessment of the likelihood of escaping ill consequences – traits that define adolescence. …Prisonmovement’s Weblog – http://prisonmovement.wordpress.com/|||Right Truth: R. Kevin Jaques-US Response to 9/11 should be …American responses to the attacks will be greatly assisted if Muslim jurists are willing to define the attacks as riddah (apostasy) and not as bughat (rebellion), or simple homicide (qatl). In the latter two categories, the perpetrators …Right Truth – http://righttruth.typepad.com/right_truth/|||Arrest made in latest Harrisburg homicide – PennLive.comWhat definition of racism from what source can you find me that includes your definition or matches how you define racism as defending people based on the color of their skin? Inappropriate? Alert us. Post a comment …Breaking Midstate News with The Patriot-News – http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/|||Orlando Sentinel – Why is it OK for an officer to run a GED …Orlando Homicide Report …. This whole conversation makes me wonder about how we define 'policing.' If you think an officer's job is to stop and/or catch criminals, a more traditional approach is appropriate. But if you think an officer's job is to improve public safety, you open up policing to a whole new set of possibilities. All sorts of things improve public safety. Better street lights, more educational opportunities, certain types of housing. …Orlando Homicide Report – http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_homicide/|||The YES! Weekly Blog: Two candidates' response to the Hickory …Two candidates' response to the Hickory Trails homicide. Jorge Cornell and Ryan Shell both made appearances at District 2 candidate Nettie Coad's campaign kickoff at the Nettie Coad Apartments today. It wasn't the first time the two at- large … And if you consider them a gang, then you also have the freedom to define that term as you wish. Gang is such a loaded and imprecise term. I prefer more descriptive terms such as organization, criminal network, drug retailing …The YES! Weekly Blog – http://yesweeklyblog.blogspot.com/ [...]
By: define homicide | sodini video on August 24, 2009
at 3:20 pm
The flow chart is oversimplified. In every case, the result comes out to “it’s murder.” Why? Because the chart is a straw man.
Here’s how my choices went.
“Is it alive?” Yes.
“Is it human?” Yes.
But it’s not murder. The problem here is that this is the fallacy of equivocation. “Murder” may technically mean “killing a human”, but it shouldn’t. It should really mean “killing a human that is already born.”
Abortion should not be considered murder because a fetus is not self-aware or rational. Early-term fetuses cannot feel pain and do not have emotions, so they do not deserve rights.
Do beings automatically deserve rights simply by being genetically human?
By: Michael Dickens on August 1, 2009
at 7:57 pm
That is the whole point, it is simple. But it doesn’t come out to ‘murder’ every time…the final one doesn’t.
I couldn’t help but notice that you didn’t even try to shoot any holes in the rationale or logic, but instead merely offer a circular, fallacious argument:
The flow chart is over-simplified.
In every case, the result comes out to murder.
Therefore, the chart is over-simplified.
By: draconianmeasures on August 4, 2009
at 8:56 am
The first statement was more of an explanatory statement. My logic was more like this:
1. In every case, the result comes out to murder.
2. There are possible rationales in which abortion is not murder.
3. Therefore, the chart is over-simplified.
Examples of oversimplification:
-Something can be neither alive nor dead. It can be nonliving or it can be partially living. There are five or six criteria that define life; if something only exhibits four of those, it can be considered partially living.
-The problem I pointed out in my last comment.
-The “what makes a human human” bit is hard to read, but it’s clearly oversimplified since every option leads to “a soul”.
-The part at the end saying “if you’re wrong, it’s murder” is just a modified version of Pascal’s Wager. I could pose a similar question: What if YOU’RE wrong? What if, before birth, fetuses actually have a negative soul? And while a fetus is alive, the fetus is sucking the soul out of the mother? Then the only rational thing to do is to kill the fetus in order to save the mother’s soul. This is a ridiculous conclusion, I know, but so is yours.
By: Michael Dickens on August 4, 2009
at 10:39 am
great Job on the writing!
By: ANAV on July 22, 2009
at 11:11 am
Thanks ANAV…and thanks for not pointing out all my typos and grammar mistakes!
By: draconianmeasures on July 22, 2009
at 11:30 am
Epic post.
It’s funny how people get real bitchy, and start cussing when they know they’re losing the debate
By: Blake Armour on July 21, 2009
at 6:23 pm
Thanks Blake…it was a fun conversation, that’s for sure. It makes for lonely lunches though! Haha…
By: draconianmeasures on July 21, 2009
at 9:27 pm
That’s not the fallacy of equivocation, it is a judgement call as to what a definition should be. Besides, the chart actually deals with that by asking questions such as ‘at what point does a human become human’ and so forth. If you accept that it IS a human, than to intentionally take its life is murder. If you don’t accept that it is human, you have to ask yourself what makes a human human and when that happens.
From your comment, it seems you are suggesting that happens upon birth and is based on the ability to reason and feel pain, which you state “early term fetuses” cannot do. What is the definition of early term? Can mid-term fetuses? At what point does this ability manifest itself? Is it instant onset or gradual? Are you sure? Is a baby born with severe defects that is unable to reason and, basically, a vegetable, not a human because of this?
By: draconianmeasures on August 4, 2009
at 11:27 am
Interesting and valid observations…and thanks for commenting and going through this by the way.
Clearly, I was referring to sentient life when I ask “can something be neither alive nor dead. I’m not sure which 6 criteria you are referring to, but I’ll wager they are all present at some pre-birth stage of human development.
As to the soul option, you propose no alternatives, aside from reason (which I mention) and pain (which cannot be said to define a human because it is experienced by virtually any living creature in some form).
What’s interesting is that you note all the paths end at certain conclusions and that spells over-simplification. I think maybe people get drawn to certain conclusions because that’s just the path the argument takes you down by virtue of the facts.
As far as responding to your final point, I would note that it is a pretty big stretch to call that argument a version of Pascal’s Wager. If one has arrived at that stage of the argument, they have agreed that a soul is what defines a human. Therefore, the question is only when that soul gets there. The ‘what if you’re wrong’ argument is valid where there is only 2 possible ultimate outcomes.
Then there is the argument David Hume would probably present, and that is the one based on practicality. If some day I woke up and there was a trailer parked on my property, I wouldn’t just blow it up without knowing for sure whether someone was in it. If I didn’t check and there was, I’m a murderer. If I did check and there wasn’t…no problem.
As far as the ‘partially living’ and veggie babies not having rights…I would only say that Eugenics is a frightening path to go down.
By: draconianmeasures on August 5, 2009
at 8:14 am
I was referring to the definition of “murder”. I believe that a human is a human from conception; however, not all humans deserve human rights (the name is a bit of a misnomer).
By “early term” I mean the first half of pregnancy. The onset is gradual, of course. Emotions and pain develop around the same time as consciousness, which is halfway through the second trimester. Rationality develops shortly after birth.
A baby who is born a vegetable and cannot be cured is genetically human, but not deserving of human rights.
By: Michael Dickens on August 4, 2009
at 1:13 pm
I do not see where you mention reason as a criterion for humanity. It is probably in the part that is too small and fuzzy for me to read.
I do not see how the tractor analogy is applicable.
I do not see how something as arbitrary as a soul can possibly be the source of human rights.
By: Michael Dickens on August 5, 2009
at 10:17 am
It’s in there, but it is probably pretty small. The actual file of the chart is huge, but wordpress only allows the uploaded images to get to a certain size.
I assume you mean the trailer analogy. It is apt in drawing a parallel between how both activities are pretty big gambles given that doing either while possessing the wrong information means committing murder.
I’m open to alternatives, but a ’soul’ as undefined as anything, seems to be as good a candidate as anything.
By: draconianmeasures on August 6, 2009
at 12:53 pm
I can’t make the chart bigger.
Yes, I meant trailer. I misread it for some reason.
I propose an alternative to the soul: suffering. Suffering should be reduced as much as possible. Fetuses are not as capable of suffering, so they should not be given the same rights as adult humans.
By: Michael Dickens on August 6, 2009
at 1:00 pm
I just read your comment…sounds straight from the Peter Singer library. Utilitarianism is also a dangerous path to take.
By: draconianmeasures on September 30, 2009
at 3:51 pm
It is straight from the Peter Singer library. I like his moral philosophy.
What is so dangerous about Utilitarianism? I see it as the only logical overarching moral philosophy. Its “nemesis”, Deontology, can end up causing harm because people follow so-called moral virtues instead of doing what is best for everyone in the long term.
By: Michael Dickens on October 1, 2009
at 3:50 am